EP 107 Gay digital nomads on living life abroad; Aussies turning to AI for travel plans & boat safety in Bali

“We’ve kind of become addicted to the novelty, life is always exciting… someone said to me, ‘you never get beyond the honeymoon stage in these countries you live in’, and I thought well that’s entirely true... but honeymoons are awesome… spending your life on a honeymoon sounds pretty good to me," says Brent Hartinger of Brent and Michael are Going Places. 

Authors, travel writers, digital creators and husbands Brent Hartinger and Michael Jensen have lived in more than 30 countries and travelled to more than 60. The long-time digital nomads have no plans to return to their home in the US, particularly now with Trump at the helm. This week, they share their insights into what it’s like living a nomadic life, with top tips on how you can do it too.

Also, Compare the Market has found almost 30 per cent of Aussies say they have relied on AI tools for travel plans – do you trust it?

And, after the fourth fatal boat accident in Bali this year, how can travellers make safe choices when choosing a boat trip in the Indonesian province? We provide some top tips of how to stay safe on a boating trip in Bali, and you can listen to Belle chatting about it on ABC here.

And here's a link to read Kirstie's story about FCC Angkor by Avani.

Visit us at https://theworldawaits.au or on Instagram here.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:01

Welcome to The World Awaits. Welcome back to The World Awaits. How are you all? How's your week been, Kirsty?

SPEAKER_03: 0:13

Yeah, I feel like I'm right back into it after being away in Cambodia and Vietnam. I felt a story about Song Sa for the New Zealand Herald and my review about FCC Angle by Avani, amazing five-star property in Siem Reap, is now live and you can read that on carryon.com and we'll put a link in the show notes. How about your week, Belle?

SPEAKER_02: 0:37

Oh, no rest for the wicked, my friend. My highlights, apart from watching children's soccer, has been a media dinner at your favourite restaurant, sorry, your favourite hotel, The Roy's, which is on St Kilda Road, because they are edging into their spring menu. So I know you stayed there a few times. This was my first time in there and it is such a gorgeous hotel. As you've said before, we had dinner in the showroom bar. It is all mirrors and silver. It's called that because the building was actually the Rolls-Royce showroom in bygone years. So if you're looking for a place to frock up and swish rosé Tattinger champagne, this is the hotel for you, my friends. Divine. And I'm going to put a little link in the show notes about that as well because it is simply gorgeous. It is a destination hotel, I think. Don't you think like if you were staying down from Sydney and you want to have a really glamorous experience because it's just like 10 minutes by tram from Flinders Street Station. Absolutely beautiful.

SPEAKER_03: 1:36

But it's such a And it's right around the corner from the Botanical Garden. So it's so nice because you get to walk there. And also the other great thing about it that makes it so quintessentially Melbourne is that when you're sitting in that restaurant, you're looking out to the road where all the trams are going past. I still love hearing that sound. It's so quintessentially Melbourne. So yeah, so it's got lots of, there's lots of reasons and it's just a beautiful hotel. It's just gorgeous. I absolutely love it. But we today are chatting AI and this controversial topic that everyone's talking about seems to be something that regardless of what industry you're in, you know, it's affecting all industries. And in travel, more and more people are apparently using it to plan their holidays. So A new research by Compare the Market found almost 30% of Aussies say they relied on AI tools to lock in deals, scout destinations and find activities.

SPEAKER_02: 2:37

Yeah, the latest data from Compare the Markets says more than one in 10 Australians surveyed said they'd used AI to look for destination recommendations. So a smaller percentage are using it to find accommodation, to create itineraries, to find flights and transport, and also for currency conversions as well.

SPEAKER_03: 2:55

Yeah, and Compare the Markets spokesperson Chris Ford said that this research highlights a shift and the way that travellers are actually approaching their planning. So, I mean, like every single day, right? I mean, you'd sort of expect that. And he concedes it's likely that travellers are using these tools, though, in addition to actually also going to travel agents.

SPEAKER_02: 3:15

It's different amongst the generations as to who's embracing AI. So older generations, unsurprisingly, are more likely to be resistant to using it to plan a holiday. 93% of baby boomers said that they hadn't. And 76% of Gen X respondents said that they'd never used AI to plan a holiday. But with Gen Z and millennials, about half of them of both of those generations have actually used AI as a tool for planning. Baby boomers that had used it said they're probably using it to source accommodation But millennials are top of the list for using it to hunt down things to do for their recreational activities. I don't know. Kirsty, what about you? Have you used it to plan a holiday?

SPEAKER_03: 3:57

Look, I fall into that Gen X category heavily. And no, I haven't actually used it for travel plans, but I do tend to do a lot of research online. And if it's a multi-destination trip, then yeah, I'm still an agent, a travel advisor all the way. And I have a good friend who's a travel agent who we've actually pictured on this show in the very early days. And she, you know, because I can see the work that they do. And I, of Thank you so much. I've got a really funny example for you. So I did a story for Carry On, actually, about the things that advisors do to go above and beyond. And I think this kind of just proves their power, really, the power of an advisor and personalization and basically what AI can't do. And there were multiple stories, but I'll tell you one of them that was really funny. So Lisa Maddox from Spencer Travel was actually telling me about a story about how she had a client who had gone– left to go on a cruise and he had left behind his prosthetic leg so he has a prosthetic leg that he needs for swimming and um He was in one of the series and he didn't have his leg. And so she had booked all this trip for him and he was a client of hers. So she was thinking, how am I going to get this leg to him? So her husband, who helps in the business, like everyone that's in there when they run their own businesses, her husband actually got on a plane and the last flight going out and got this prosthetic leg and managed to get it to him before he flew halfway around the world to deliver this leg and managed to get it to him. She found one flight out of Sydney to Buenos Aires and it was only a couple of hours later. So she said to her husband, hey, fancy a trip to Buenos Aires with a prosthetic leg? So he just made the flight as it was boarding and 19 hours later he arrived with that leg and they had dinner together and then he handed over the leg and the And then she said the following year her husband was sent a case of wine with a note saying happy leg anniversary. So that doesn't prove the power of personalisation and travel advisors. I don't know what does. Oh, that is a phenomenal

SPEAKER_02: 6:39

story. That is amazing. That is so good. But look, I mean, back to AI, look, I keep getting told that I need to embrace it, but I mean, I'm a writer by profession. So that means my job is creating original work, not stealing it, not repackaging it from what other people have already created. So I have been reluctant to embrace it. It's not because I'm technologically incompetent. I think it's a moral opposition to it. I also think about the high energy use for every query, you know, that stat that every chat GTP search uses a bottle of water. So I think to Just sitting online making random AI requests is kind of toxic in that way. And often, okay, it's often wrong or outdated information. Take a look at the whole grok dramas that's going on there if you've got any doubts. So I'm going to sound antediluvian, but look, that's my position.

SPEAKER_03: 7:30

Yeah, and look, that's exactly, I think, well, that's exactly what Compare the Market was saying too. They said that while they can be helpful, the onus is on travellers to make sure that you're receiving appropriate guidance because, and I've had travel advisors telling me that they are receiving, you know, itineraries or people are coming to them with information that's just completely off the mark, like places that just don't even exist or are places that they certainly wouldn't recommend. So, you know, yeah, it gets back to that whole issue of the accuracy just isn't quite there yet and that's what Compare the Market as they say that many of these AI tools are still just in their infancy stage. And so, you know, just you have to do your research and make sure you're equipped with the right tools and information for your track. This week, my guests are Michael Jensen and Brett Hartinger, gay nomads who've lived in more than 30 countries and travelled to more than 60.

SPEAKER_02: 8:30

Amazing. So how did you find these guys, Kirsty?

SPEAKER_03: 8:35

Well, they actually run a travel blog called Brent and Michael are Going Places, which is a massive and almost like cult-like following. And I just was reading about them and reading about their story, which is very interesting. They left the US because of when Donald Trump was very first elected. And I wanted to find out a bit more about that and what made them want to hit the road permanently. And also, it's such an interesting concept and one I think many people would love to do. So I just wanted to get some tips for others who Yeah, who want to follow in their footsteps. So take a listen. Welcome to the show, Michael and Brent.

SPEAKER_00: 9:12

Thank you, Kirsty. We're very happy to be here with you. I'm Brent and I'm Michael.

SPEAKER_03: 9:17

It's so great to have you on The World Away. So let's kick off by just start us a bit about what made you want to leave the U.S. and live a nomadic life.

SPEAKER_01: 9:28

Well, OK, so we literally made the decision to leave the night Donald Trump was elected in 2016. And we were driving home from a very depressing election party. And I turned to Michael and I said, why don't we just believe the country? And he thought about it for about three seconds. And he said, OK. But the longer story is we've been talking about doing this for a long time, about traveling long term. But looking back now, I seriously wonder if that hadn't happened, if Donald Trump hadn't been elected, would we have always sort of dreamed about it and never made the push? So as horrible as that was, Maybe it ended up being a good thing for us, ironically, a silver lining, because it's honestly the best decision we ever made. I'd lived

SPEAKER_00: 10:09

overseas before. I'd actually finished high school in Australia, and then I went back after I graduated from university, and I worked at the Brisbane Expo, and I hitchhiked up and down the whole eastern seaboard. So when he asked me if I wanted to leave the country, he's not kidding. It took me about three seconds to say, yes, I want to go leave and see the rest of the world again.

SPEAKER_03: 10:27

That's amazing. And that was obviously the first time Trump was elected. Were you considering going back? And then when he was reelected, did you decide no? Or was it already, I mean, your plans were already long-term?

SPEAKER_00: 10:41

No, we decided to give this a year. When we started, we'd never heard the term digital nomad, long-term travel. We had no idea that this was a lifestyle. We decided to give it a year. We were a year, we were just a couple months into it, living in Miami, which was our first stop. And we looked at each other and we said, this is great. We really like this. I don't think we're going to be going back anytime soon. So the

SPEAKER_01: 11:04

big, I think, mistake we made and that most people make looking at our lives, we thought of it being like on holiday, being on vacation. And we thought it would be really expensive. We thought it would be really stressful. And even now, people look at our life and the only peg they can hang it on is being on holiday. But what we do is very different than being on holiday because we call ourselves slow-mads. We travel slowly and we tend to stay someplace anywhere between one and three months. And ironically, because we lived in America, which is so darn expensive compared to the rest of the world, our cost of living is much cheaper than it was. So it's really very different than being on holiday. And it's hard to explain that to people until you actually do it. It's less stressful and it's cheaper.

SPEAKER_03: 11:48

Yes, that's a really good point. So tell us how many countries you've visited so far and where you are now, what you're doing now. Two questions in one.

SPEAKER_00: 12:00

We're not really country calendars, so I can't tell you exactly how many, but I think... It's somewhere in the low 60s. I think that's how many countries we've we've lived in 30 plus countries and another 30 countries we've we've been through for a certain amount of time. We are currently in San Miguel de Mexico, which is in central Mexico. We've been here almost two and a half months and we leave a week from today to continue on to the second half of the year.

SPEAKER_03: 12:27

Great. And where are you headed to next?

SPEAKER_00: 12:31

So we're going to be in Seattle for two weeks, which is our hometown, visiting friends and family. And then we hop on a plane to Seoul, Korea. We're in Seoul, Korea for a week. And then we are going to Taiwan for one to three months. And then we're going to Hong Kong for two weeks, doing a 10-day tour of China and then finishing up the year in Japan. The

SPEAKER_01: 12:51

one part about our lifestyle that we do feel... So we generally try to stay in one area of the world for an entire year. And if we're in Europe, then that means we can do ground transportation. Since we're going to be in Asia, we're going to do more flying than usual. But we try to minimize as much as possible. That's the flaw in what we do, the carbon footprint.

SPEAKER_03: 13:14

Yes, and a challenging one. Although obviously there's experiences in other ways you can give back when you are traveling, which I'm sure you do too. What country or region or place that you've been to has surprised you the most?

SPEAKER_01: 13:32

Gosh, I mean, it's the places that we don't have big expectations for. We spent a lot of time in Central and Eastern Europe and we hadn't We had stereotypes from the Soviet Union and really vague, vague impressions because they're not really well-known travel destinations. At least they weren't, especially eight years ago, seven years ago. And so that has been delightful. And in general, I think that's true. I think... The places we most like to visit are not the big tourist hotspots, in part because there are no hordes of people. I mean, that's always nice. But also just because you don't know what to expect. And the big thing, I think the biggest surprise has been how nice people are all over the world. People are so generous and open. Especially, again, our life is different from being a tourist. You go outside the tourist hotspots, which is where we tend to live, and people are so grateful and generous. happy that you've come to visit their community and they're so willing to meet you and welcome you into their place. And that's just been wonderful. It's, you know, leaving the country, you know, Trump gets elected and my view of America gets really low. Then we travel around the world and my view of humanity has really increased because people are just so open and generous and kind and

SPEAKER_00: 14:46

wonderful. I think in terms of location, Brent touched on Eastern Europe and being children of the Cold War that was behind the Iron Curtain. And I had this certain stereotype. I focused on the Eastern Europe part that it's going to be run down and lots of factories and not very nice. And I forgot the Europe part. And what we realized when we started spending time in Eastern Europe is it's Europe. It is wonderful old towns and it is, you know, fantastic plazas and beautiful castles. And I mean, it's Europe. And so that part of it was really wonderful. It's just much less expensive and crowded.

SPEAKER_03: 15:19

Yes, yes. And so when you're living in certain places, what are you doing? Are you house-sitting or are you hiring Airbnbs? Where are you staying?

SPEAKER_01: 15:33

It's a combination of things. We sometimes rent through Airbnb. Oftentimes, we'll rent a month, and then we'll make a deal with the owner to continue living. That's what we often do. We've met so many people now that sort of opportunities and circumstances arise. I said when we left Seattle— I said to Michael, well, we need to bring a jacket because we're going to be invited to live in the villa of some European prince. And that has yet to happen. But we have had all kinds of weird opportunities where people say, oh, come live with me in my guest house, or would you mind house sitting, or let's travel together. And so it's half the time we rent Traditionally, in half the time, some weird circumstance arises, and the more people you know, then the more people you meet. And it just goes on and on and on, and that's been wonderful, too.

SPEAKER_00: 16:18

In pre-COVID, we did a lot of something called co-living, which is what a lot of digital nomads do. You have your own private bedroom and bathroom, but then you share workspace and kitchen space. COVID really threw a wrench in all of that, and we haven't actually gone back to that. We keep saying we're going to, but we haven't quite got back to it. I know a lot of businesses went under during COVID, so hopefully we'll eventually get that back into the mix.

SPEAKER_01: 16:45

Co-living is like an upscale hostel, long-term hostel, where everybody has their own small personal space and then like a shared kitchen. And it's just a wonderful way to meet people who are also looking to meet people. We met lots of wonderful friends that way.

SPEAKER_03: 17:01

And slightly different to this grand, almost palace-like house that I can see in the background that you're standing in now that you did tell me has an intercom from one of the levels to the other.

SPEAKER_01: 17:13

Yeah, these were my friends that invited us to serve We've got a cheap rent, so we're sort of house-sitting and renting. But it's, oh gosh, it's a palatial mansion. But it's fun to be here for a couple of months. Why not?

SPEAKER_00: 17:26

But not our style long-term. I would never buy a place this big.

SPEAKER_03: 17:32

So where's somewhere that you would never go back to?

SPEAKER_00: 17:36

Well, that's easy for me to answer, and that would be Serbia. That is a country in Eastern Europe for folks who don't know. And I just... I never connected with the people there. We'd just come from Bahrain, Herzegovina, and for those who don't know, they were involved in a war in the late 90s, early aughts, when Yugoslavia was breaking up. And there was a lot of conflict between the two countries, and I found the Bosnian attitude, Bosnians... In Sarajevo, we were mostly Muslim. In Serbia, they were mostly Orthodox Christians. And I found the Bosnians to have a great attitude about the war. And I found the Serbians to have a big chip on their shoulder that left a bad taste in my mouth. So I don't really want to go back to Serbia.

SPEAKER_01: 18:18

Honestly, we disagree slightly on this. We were in part of Serbia that was sort of an autonomous region called Novi Sad. So the Arctic part of the country. I think it's true literally everywhere we have been. There's something we love and something we don't like. And so it's like people say, what's your favorite country? And I mean, I love Thailand and I love Italy and I love Mexico, but everywhere we have been, I know it sounds, I don't know, anodyne or something. It sounds Pollyanna-ish. Everywhere we've been, there has been something truly wonderful. And there's also been something truly annoying. So it's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. then it becomes, it's just all a wonderful blur. I hate to sound quite so positive about everything, but I've totally drunk the Nomad Kool-Aid.

SPEAKER_03: 19:22

And also because, did you find any challenges, you know, traveling as a couple? Like, is that something that you've had to, or is it just not something that comes up? Is it just not? You

SPEAKER_00: 19:33

mean as a gay couple? Yes. No, it really has not been an issue. I can hardly think of any instances. And that comes from a, a place of great privilege because as Westerners who are perceived as being relatively well-off and able to do and travel this lifestyle, when we go to places, A, they're going to want our tourist dollars. So they have a vested interest in being welcoming and not caring that we're a gay couple. Then I would add to that that most people, they just want to live their life. They don't care about how, who you are, you know, what your sexuality is. If you're not making it an overt issue, then they don't have a reason to make it an overt issue.

SPEAKER_01: 20:18

Well, we're also mindful of local mores, you know, and we are, I guess, quote unquote, discreet. In terms of being a couple, we have a lot of nomad friends who are single and there are real challenges. You know, they get lonely, they create this social life in wherever they're living, and then they move on and they have to start over again. And it's this sort of endless cycle and get frustrated where we're really lucky. never lonely we do sometimes have to deal with the issue of you know if we have a small living space and we're together and so we have to make a point to give each other personal space and you know maybe sometimes rent a larger place than we would have otherwise rent but those are workable challenges and we like each other so that's been good

SPEAKER_00: 21:01

going back to the the gay part we do have uh people who contact us and say, gosh, I'd be afraid to go to Turkey or I'd be afraid to go to Vietnam or these other countries where gay rights aren't protected. And we always encourage people not to let that drive them away from having these really great experiences. And we do what we can with our platform. We connect with the local gay community and we try and shed a light on whatever the issues are there and be out as much as possible to to make it feel like we're doing something positive in our travels.

SPEAKER_01: 21:36

Except, I mean, I hate to keep contradicting you slightly, but I do think now that Trump has been reelected a second time, we used to feel like if something happened in a homophobic country, the United States government would have our back. And I don't feel that way anymore. So there are now certain countries maybe that we've visited, very conservative traditional countries, but I wouldn't go back to now because if something were to go bad, the Trump administration has made it clearer that you are on your own. So the equation is shifting. You know, obviously, you have to be mindful of your comfort level.

SPEAKER_00: 22:07

Yeah, but I think the Trump administration isn't going to care about anybody who's not a Trump supporter. Yeah, well, yeah, that's true. It doesn't matter what country you get into trouble in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 22:14

And what about your thoughts on how travel is going to be impacted within your own country? I mean, you know, given there's now being travel bans to various countries around, Do you, are you here, you know, when you go back and are you hearing sort of, are there concerns about the impact on travel to the States?

SPEAKER_00: 22:34

I mean, we've read lots of articles saying that the number of people coming to the States is falling and Canadians especially are canceling trips and they don't want anything to do with it. And we certainly understand that. We don't spend that much time back there, but I will tell you, even my going back to the United States, I look at my social media and Before I enter the country, I have no reason to think that immigration is going to stop and look at me. But if for some reason they were going to, I do not want to find out what their reaction would be to seeing some of the things I posted. So if I'm not an American citizen and I'm thinking about coming to the United States and I've been critical of the government or I'm just worried about something happening. I don't think it's crazy to have pause about coming into the United States at this point.

SPEAKER_01: 23:20

And I think we think people are underestimating the impact that this is going to have on world travel in the years ahead, that there will be repercussions and that there will be... We haven't experienced really overt anti-American prejudice outside of Serbia. But I can... If economies start crashing because of a trade war or something, then things become a little more real. So I just think You know, America is the most powerful country in the world, and it feels like it's imploding in a lot of ways, whether it's becoming fascist or whatever, something. It's a profound shift in the world order. And that's going to have repercussions, I think, for the rest of, you know, for decades to come. But we don't know exactly what they are. But it is, it's scary. Yeah, it's frightening.

SPEAKER_03: 24:04

So how long are you planning on doing this? Is this a forever thing?

SPEAKER_00: 24:10

We get asked that question a lot. And we always tell people, We're going to keep doing it. We've been doing it eight years. We're going to keep doing it until either we have grown tired of it or health issues, or maybe now as Brent's talking about the world we're changing, something external forces it to stop. We always check in and reevaluate how we're feeling about the travel. And we've been in, we just said to each other this morning, we've been here in San Miguel two and a half months, which is a fantastic destination. We've absolutely loved it. And yet we both looked at each other and said, when we leave next Wednesday, we're not going to be sorry to go. It's time for us to move on. And that says to me that we're still enjoying the lifestyle. We are not feeling a lot of pressure to settle down. Brad sometimes talks about wanting to have a home base, which a lot of nomads do after time. They'll have a home base they can come back to. But there's all kinds of reasons that we continue to shy away from that. At some point, that pressure will change and maybe we will decide to get a home base and travel a little bit less frequently. But... But honestly, we

SPEAKER_01: 25:12

also say we've kind of become addicted to the novelty. It's terrible to say, but life is always new and exciting. And every time we go for a walk, it's often someplace we've never walked before. Whereas when we lived in Seattle, we made the same four walks over and over again. And we both do sometimes wonder, this is terrible. But somebody said to me once, oh, you never got beyond the honeymoon stage in these different countries that you live in. You know, it's all new and fresh. And I thought, well, that's entirely true. We do meet local friends and I think we go fairly deep. But on the other hand, honeymoons are awesome. What's so bad about going from honeymoon to honeymoon? Spending your whole life on a honeymoon sounds pretty goddamn good to me. So it's like, but in a way, the dark side to that is I do feel like we've become a bit addicted to the novelty and that If we stalked, we would feel bored, which is not unnatural. This is so an unnatural state of being. I mean, I guess they've always been like traders and travelers and explorers and pioneers. But I do worry that when it comes time to settle down, whether for health reasons or otherwise, it'll be a challenge. And it might be. But like I said, for the time being, it's awesome. It's a great way. I want

SPEAKER_03: 26:25

to be in a permanent honeymoon phase. I want that. So what are some of your top tips for other people to do the same thing that you're doing?

SPEAKER_00: 26:38

I would say the world is not as scary as many people think it is. Don't be fearful of going out there. I would say be flexible. You really have to be adaptable and able to roll with the punches. Do a lot of research into your destinations to figure out what it is that works for you, what kind of trial is going to most appeal to you. What else?

SPEAKER_01: 27:01

I

SPEAKER_00: 27:01

think...

SPEAKER_01: 27:02

Don't be afraid of looking ridiculous because nobody cares. Nobody's watching you. There's this idea that if you, you know, do something stupid or if you mispronounce a word, people will judge. And nobody cares. Why do I'm 60 years old and I still feel like I, you know, like a 13 year old boy thinking that everybody cares about my business and nobody does. That's what eight years of travel has taught me that. You just go with the flow and people enjoy it when you make a chance and you screw up. Everybody laughs and it's just nothing to be afraid of. And as Michael said, the world is nothing to be afraid of. Putting yourself in a weird situation, somebody will step up and help you. You'll make a magical connection or you won't, or you'll be lost and scared for a little bit. And that's a good thing too. You'll learn a little bit of metal and resilience. And these are all wonderful things. And you'll be exposed to things that will surprise you and you have to try to figure them out. And then you realize, oh, wow, people are more alike than they're different. And all these wonderful things will happen with your brain. And it's just, it's so much, all of the cliches about travel are true. They're true and they're wonderful. And, you know, sometimes bad things will happen, but that can happen anywhere. I think I'd also add that

SPEAKER_00: 28:13

if you are going to do long-term travel, It's really important to work on your relationships. And I think you both need to keep your connections to your friends and family back home by Zooming or going home to visit once a year or encouraging your friends and family to come visit you as you travel. And we've had a bit of that happen. But you also need to connect with other travelers and you have to work to make that happen. And I think that a lot of people talk about end up being really lonely. And I think that can be a danger, especially if you're, you know, if you're moving one every three months, you're going to be, you know, getting to know people and leaving them. Once you start doing it for a while, and if you nurture those connections, you will start meeting up with those people again around the world. And you will start to feel like you have a traveling community so that you don't end up feeling alone and isolated.

SPEAKER_01: 29:00

But it goes back to what I said about not being afraid, because somebody said to me once, Have you ever gotten a message from a friend where they say, I'm just thinking about you and been annoyed? It's like that doesn't happen. People always want to hear from you. And if they don't, then that's clarifying, too. That's the other thing that this travel has shown us. Who your friends are, who you really care. All of the obligatory friends fall away right away. You know, and you concentrate on the people that you made a real connection with. And and it's like. Michael is right. You have to make that a priority. You have to be mindful of all these important things. All the things that keeping up with your TV show or commenting on Facebook, all the things that don't matter, they don't matter. And it's more clear they don't matter when the alternative is, well, I can doom scroll on my phone or I can go into the town square and watch some cool festival and get street food. It becomes very, very clear, which is more worthwhile.

SPEAKER_03: 29:53

Yeah, and I love your advice, Brent, about just getting out and not being worried about what people think because this is important, a message in life, right? And particularly... like you say, when you're traveling, it opens your eyes and makes you realize that the world's a much better place than worrying about yourself so much and being so insular and self-absorbed. And I think that that's such a wonderful message and a really important one. Right, we're running out of time. So we're going to wrap up by asking a question we ask all of our interviewees, which is, what's the most bizarre thing that's ever happened to you on your travels?

SPEAKER_00: 30:28

We tried to come up with a good answer to this. Well, we've had Our apartment in Bulgaria caught on fire once. A plane caught on fire. Our plane flying from Boston to London caught on fire, and we had to divert. So we had those incidents. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 30:42

Somebody pulled a gun on us once. I mean, all these... But that... That was in the United States. That was

SPEAKER_00: 30:47

pre-nomading

SPEAKER_01: 30:47

days. But it's honestly... The most bizarre thing, honestly, when we were in America, it always felt like pulling teeth to get people... to get together to socialize. And I don't know if it was us. We were in a different headspace back in America. We were younger, and I think people were caught up in family and career. Or I think that it's much more likely that outside of America, people are much more open to connections and valuing life, appreciating life, living in the moment. And also, I think the travel community is, you know, you don't leave home if you're perfectly content with your life. You leave home if you're looking. You're trying to get away from something or you're looking for something. You're searching for something or you're running away from something. One of those two things. That's why you leave home. Because it's, you know, it's a lot of activity. You have to go through a lot of planning. So those people are interesting and they want to connect with you. And I do think, so I've been, it is bizarre to me. We were sort of like popular now, but we were never popular back in Seattle. We always would throw dinner parties and people had excuses. And we thought, is it us? Are we boring? Are we not charming? Now we are popular. And I don't know if it's... That's been the most bizarre thing.

SPEAKER_00: 31:56

And since this is an Australian podcast, I will just throw in this story. Back in the 80s, when I was backpacking around Australia, I was in New South Wales in a very rural area backpacking with a friend. And we got... picked up by a very strange man who had a lot of religious iconography on his dashboard. And he was carrying a copy of a movie called The Hitcher. And he was a very weird man. He gave off very strange vibes. And as soon as we came to the next intersection out in the middle of nowhere, we got out of the car. And then several years later, I learned a serial killer had started operating about nine months after that experience in that part of Australia. And he was picking up European and I think Australian backpackers and murdering them in a forest. So that was a really bizarre experience. Whether that was him or not, I cannot tell you. I just know I have never forgotten that experience and how weird that was. But

SPEAKER_01: 32:49

it's another piece of travel advice. Trust your gut. Your gut is so valuable and I feel like my gut is more tuned. It's so true that We rarely feel in danger, and when we do, we just get an Uber. Just go home.

SPEAKER_03: 33:03

Well, I hope your lasting memories of Australia are not there. Oh,

SPEAKER_00: 33:08

nice up the hand. I've lived in Australia for more than two years now. We spent three months there. Blue Hills, Blue Mountains. Just last year, we were there. No, Australia, Italy... Mexico and Thailand are my favorite countries in the world. One of my few regrets in life is that I didn't immigrate to Australia. Well, it would be a regret, except meeting Brent. I didn't immigrate to Australia back in the late 80s. He's not just sucking up to you. He's a total

SPEAKER_01: 33:36

fan.

SPEAKER_00: 33:36

No, I've gone to Australia in friends and family. I follow the Cronulla Sharks. I follow Australian politics. I'm an honorary Australian, whether Australia

SPEAKER_01: 33:46

has me or not. Too many... uh thorns and bitey things for me but but otherwise it's a beautiful country i haven't told

SPEAKER_00: 33:54

about the sharks

SPEAKER_01: 33:54

i've encountered i had an encounter with leeches like dry leeches in australia that has left me traumatized for you for months for years but otherwise a beautiful country

SPEAKER_03: 34:04

oh look it's been so wonderful chatting with you both and um i've absolutely loved it every moment of it and um you've given some Incredible advice for people who want to follow in your footsteps. And thank you for sharing your journey. And I hope that we can connect again and see where you are maybe in a year's time.

SPEAKER_00: 34:21

That's that we do, Kirsty. Thank you so much for having us.

SPEAKER_02: 34:25

I love how they describe it as a permanent honeymoon phase. And their tip about being flexible is such great advice for anybody who wanted to live a nomadic life because it does not follow routine. And if you would like to follow their adventures, go to Brent and Michael are goingplaces.com. If you'd like to

SPEAKER_03: 34:43

help support our production costs, you can buy us a coffee at coffee.com slash theworldawakes. That's ko-fi.com slash theworldawakes so we can continue to bring you inspirational travel interviews with the world's best.

SPEAKER_02: 35:00

Our tip this week is about how travellers can make safe choices when choosing a boat trip in Bali. So this comes after the fourth fatal boat accident in Bali this year. In the most recent accident, several people were killed when their boat capsized just offshore of the popular resort area of Senur on Bali's east coast, returning from a trip to the island of Nusa Penida.

SPEAKER_03: 35:23

Yeah, it's such tragic news. And Sunua is one of the three main ports that boats depart from to visit the island of Nusa Penida and further afield to the Gili Islands too. And boats also depart from Piring by north of Sunua and also from Benoa Harbour, which is down near Nusa Dua, which is very popular. Most people would know Nusa Dua. So the crossing is only 45 minutes and it takes between two and four hours to sail from Bali to the Gillies.

SPEAKER_02: 35:50

Yeah, Nusa Penida is interesting because it really hit social media fame for its beautiful beaches, including Glinking and Diamond Beaches. Have you seen, Kirsty, on social media that there are Developers are building a glass elevator going down the cliffside because it's always been this, you know, really difficult climb down from the top of the cliffs down to the beach. So they're putting in this glass elevator and it's been really controversial, but it's made it really popular, you know, a popular island, beautiful island. Now there's a lot more resorts and villas on the island, so you can stay there, which you just couldn't do before. So we're going there in greater numbers. And also, I mean, we're going to Bali in greater numbers, one and a half million people last year alone. And the thing that makes these waters between Bali and Lombok so unsafe is that there's an exceptionally deep ocean channel running between the two islands. And the Strait is known for these great ocean swells.

SPEAKER_03: 36:47

Yeah, and boating experts say that there are many things travellers can do. So our tip for you is to start with... Just, I mean, check weather reports, obviously. So the dry season runs from April till October. But within that, July to September is known for greatest sea swells and high winds. So being informed about the weather is obviously a really good start. And just consider, you know, what you go with your instincts. Also, is the boat that you're using reputable? So just do some research. Have a look through Facebook chats. They've got sort of a wealth of information from travellers who recently caught these boats and many are long-term Bali residents, so you'll get a really honest opinion there. And boating experts say you can also ask the staff. So ask about does the captain actually own the boat or do they have a commercial licence and is it insured? Don't be scared to ask questions because boating It's your life here that's at risk.

SPEAKER_02: 37:50

And yeah, I think that's a really good point. You know, have you got a cheap fare or, you know, is it worth it? So on the day when you're at port, you know, you've booked your tickets already. But when you're actually at the port, you really have to use your common sense. I mean, is there a life jacket? This is such a basic thing. Is there a life jacket for every person on the boat? Also, you know, how old is the boat? Is it full or is it over capacity? So that I couldn't believe when you saw the photos of that boat, Kirsty, there were 80 people on that boat that capsized the other day at Senor. And it looked tiny. So, you know, when you're on the boat, are the crew doing a safety drill? Are there so many bags jammed in the walkways that you can't actually move if it doesn't feel right? Don't get on the boat. And if you want to, but if you want to go to the ghillies and wary of the boats, I have done this before. You actually fly to Lombok. I was staying in Lombok and you can take a boat from there. It's a much shorter, less treacherous journey. It's as little as 15 minutes on the fast boats. And for more, I recently spoke with Joe O'Brien on ABC News channel about the boating disaster. I'm going to put a link to the interview in the show notes, or you can look for me, look for Bell Jackson on YouTube. And it's on my socials now at, on Instagram at global underscore salsa. Next week, we are sailing on the high seas with cruise expert Sally McMillan. If you can't find Sally, chances are she's on a ship somewhere in the world. So she'll be sharing decades of experience with some great tips about how to get the best value for your dollar when you are cruising.

SPEAKER_03: 39:30

Yeah, can't wait to hear that one. Love hearing from Sally. And please join us on Instagram at The World Awaits Podcast. And also we're on the same under Facebook. Just look up The World Awaits Podcast or simply drop us a line at hello at theworldawaits.au. We love nothing more than hearing from our listeners.

SPEAKER_02: 39:50

That's a wrap for The World Awaits this week. Click to subscribe anywhere you listen to your favourite pods. Thanks for listening. See you next week.