EP 115 Africa through the eyes of an expert; biggest travel irks & the best pies in Australia

Ivona Siniarska has been to Africa 40 times and the founder and managing director of travel booker Take Off Go says it's more than a destination, "it's a deep-seated emotion".

From Kenya to South Africa, Ivona talks to us about the best places to go, where to start for first-timers, and how to ensure you're travelling in a way that's right by the wildlife, and ensures you are able to make the most of the experience, https://www.takeoffgo.com/

Also, loud talkers, crowding the luggage carousel and throwing your plane seat back… these are just some of the things that irk us most when we travel, according to Vodafone.

And the Great Aussie Pie Competition results are in - listen in for where to get the best pie in Australia. Road trips just got a whole lot more delicious, https://greataussiepiecomp.com.au/

Read Kirstie's shortlisted adventure story for the Australian Society of Travel Writers' Excellence Awards about Sardinia and Belle's shortlisted culinary story about eating in Oman.

Belle has also been shortlisted for the 2025 Travel Writer of the Year award; her stories include AlUla in Saudi Arabia and Moor, Please! A fabulous self-guided journey on Spain's public trains from Seville to Jerez and Cadiz, with Inntravel.

And if you'd like to hear Belle chatting with 2GB about her cover story about travelling through Tunisia with Intrepid Travel, and the goat that tried to derail it all, listen here, https://omny.fm/shows/2gb-afternoons/travel-tunisia 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02: 0:02

Welcome to The World Awaits. Travel Tales to Inspire Your Wonderlust. Welcome back to The World Awaits. How are you all? How's your week been, Kirsty?

SPEAKER_01: 0:14

I have had such a good week. Um, I'm so excited because my story in Australian Geographic about cycling around Sardinia, which for our longtime listeners will be sick of hearing about, one of the finalists in the Australian Travel Rider Awards, and you're a finalist too.

SPEAKER_02: 0:32

Snap, I am too. I've been shortlisted in the Best Culinary Story Award for a feature I wrote about absolutely stuffing my chops in Oman. Yum, yum, bring it on. And if you'd like to read about what you should be eating in Oman, I'll put a link to that story in the show notes. But, friends, you are hanging with the stars. You already knew that. But um also I have just been shortlisted for the top award, which is the travel writer of the year, whose acronym is actually Twati, um, which does not detract from the award at all. I did win it the year before last, and it was such a joy. After so many years of writing in a void, I did feel loved. Um, so to enter the award, you had to submit three stories. So I put in one about uh Alula in Saudi Arabia being the hottest place on the planet, in a travel fashion sense, not because like it's a desert. And my second story was another story about Oman, published in Luxury Escape's Dream magazine. And the third was a cover story for the Sydney Morning Herald, and it was about the most fantastic self-guided tour by train, which I took through southern Andalusia in Spain with a fantastic company called In Travel. So I'm gonna put links to those places and stories in the show notes as well, which you can see on our website, which is thewordawaits.au.

SPEAKER_01: 1:53

And as this goes to air, I am also going to be winging my way back from Tahiti. So um I was, we're time traveling a bit, sorry, people. Um, but I was um the only Australian or New Zealand journalist attending Tahiti's first international yoga festival. So um I'm also, I know this is I'm so fortunate, but I'm also one of the first to experience Air Tahiti Nui's new Moana Premium Plus. So I will be able to talk more about that with you next week and also share the links to uh my stories. And um, yeah, and you can look back at my Insta, Coosty Rights, and have a look and see uh um all the incredible things that I I saw and did while I was over there. How about you, Belle?

SPEAKER_02: 2:38

Well, I'm about to head down to lovely, lovely Tasmania to check out the new refuges at Pump House Point, which is a former electricity station set on the banks of Lake St. Clair in the Central Highlands. It has been my dream to visit this property for many, many years. The last time I was at Lake St. Clair, and it was actually, it was such a long time ago, I don't think Pump House was even built then. I just finished the Overland Track, which I still reckon is Australia's premier long-distance hike. And the lake may have been the first time I'd had a shower in quite a few days. So I just leapt straight into this pristine, absolutely frigid, mountain-fed um lake. And I have to say, the I scared the birds out of the trees. When I hit the water, it was just like it was absolutely freezing. Um, another funny thing that happened to me, um, I was when I was in Central Australia, I've got to tell you this quickly, Kirsty, I was talking to 2GB radio station in Sydney, and we were talking about Tunisia. The whole time I was doing the interview, I had I was staying on a cattle station outside Alice Springs called Uramina Station. And when I borrowed the office, the station's office to do the interview where it was quiet. As soon as I sat down, rang 2GB rang me. We started doing the interview about Tunisia. There was a goat standing outside the window. And as soon as it sees people in there, it starts screaming for food. So the whole way through this radio interview, I have got a goat screaming, absolutely screaming. And um this and I thought, I wonder if they can hear it. And the bloke, um, Michael McLaren, I was talking to, he said, it sounds like you're in an abattoir. And um, speaking of which, what do they eat in Tunisia? I'm like, there's a lot of goat being eaten. This goat was just screaming for a moment.

SPEAKER_01: 4:25

Oh my god, that's so funny. Do you know what I think about when you say when you talk about goats? Did you see that? Um, have you seen that video of that little Kiwi girl? And she says, I can't swear because we're a clean podcast, but she says, um, um, look, it's an effing goat. And then she keeps saying it over and over again, and it is the funniest thing you'll ever see in your life. And um, and her mothers kept saying in the background, no, it's just a goat. And she keeps going, I haven't seen this an effing goat. And it's so it's hilarious. She's a little Kiwi kid. It's so funny. And every time anyone mentions goats, that's all I think about.

SPEAKER_02: 5:02

I I might have been saying that under my breath, but I was on live radio, um, live Sydney radio, so I didn't actually say it either. Because we like to keep ourselves nice here, don't we, Kirsty?

SPEAKER_01: 5:13

Well, that's so funny. But um, yeah, I wonder if did you hear bat, did you hear, did you listen back? Was the could you hear the goat?

SPEAKER_02: 5:20

Well, I've only just got back, so I've got the link now. I had almost no Wi-Fi um in the whole time in Central Australia, so I haven't listened to it back now. But I had it, I had it just it was just echoing in my head, and I was dying of embarrassment. And the bloody thing only stopped when we went outside and gave it something to eat. I swear to God, it was nearly kebab. Which is what they eat in Tunisia.

SPEAKER_01: 5:46

Oh, that is so funny. That's so funny. Well, you can actually scroll on back and and find um Val's um podcast episode where she talked about Tunisia because and that was one that was really well listened to as well, because it was fascinating. Um, so scoot on back and and find that if you want to, because we've got pretty good back catalogue now. We're up to episode 115.

SPEAKER_02: 6:07

Um, yeah, this I mean the interview came around because I just had the cover story in the Sydney Morning Herald about Tunisia. So I'm gonna drop a link to that in the show notes as well. It's it's been going off. You gotta go.

SPEAKER_01: 6:18

Great. Well, this week we are talking about the issues that give travelers the ick when they are traveling. And I have to say, I have a quite a few that get on my goat too, Val. So Vodafone has said that loud talkers in quiet places was top of the list. I have to say, this really does irk me. Uh that you know, when you're especially when you're in a and when you're in a train, it's really annoying as well. Um, but in a plane, it's yeah, that's a bit frustrating. You know, when you're just on a, especially when you're on an overnight flight and someone's talking really, really ridiculously loud. Anyway, so that's one of the that what that was what topped the list.

SPEAKER_02: 7:00

Yeah, absolutely. Um, nearly half of Australians say that that is their biggest travel ick. And also, too, you know, when people don't put their earphones in and stuff. So you're just listening to somebody banging on, you know, so they so you've got to hear both sides of the conversation, which is possibly even worse. Um, the next one on the list was the human snail. Uh, can't believe that I'm the one that's gonna read this one out, and that is the always late travel companion. Look, I definitely skim the time. Kirsty initially wrote in a script that this is me, I you I am always traveling late. I want to defend myself on this one. I skim, I skim the time here because, in my defense, I am a very busy woman. But also, I cannot, cannot spend three hours hanging around at an airport before a flight because usually I'm not in the lounge, baby. I'm stuck out the front. Um, and it's a waste of life. They only tell you to go there so early so that you can spend all your money in the bloody cafes. So, uh please don't start me because I know you are very early and you're very good and very organized. Um so also moving right along from the ick that is late travelers, um, high on the ick list also are drunken behavior and shameless photo bombers, which are so annoying. This also goes about, like, you know, when you try to get a nice photo of your kids on holidays and one of them's always got their mouth wide open, their tongue hanging out, or they turn their face away, or they pull those hideous faces. So, does that class as a shameless photo bomber or travel egg? Dunno.

SPEAKER_01: 8:37

I don't know. Either way, so annoying. Yeah. Yes, either way, so annoying. So the phone addict um who spends more time scrolling on their phone and snapping photos for Instagram was high in the ratings, along with a fussy foodie. So that's someone who refuses to try the local cuisine and owns two Aussie style cafes. Um, I mean, what's the point in that? And anyway, how can you even find Aussie style cafes anywhere? You can't. Um, and a third of Aussies get the travel act with companions who become the budget police on holidays and question every dollar spent. And I have to say, my husband doesn't do that on the holiday, but he does do that before the holiday and even creates spreadsheets. And do you know how he annoyingly puts things on? Like if you go and buy a new, like I bought a July suitcase and he went and put the luggage on his spreadsheet and then claimed it as part of the cost of our holiday. And I'm like, you cannot do that because I can use that luggage, you know, forever. So um, yes, that's very annoying. So he is definitely, in fact, you know, I've got friends who call him the finance police. That's what they call them.

SPEAKER_02: 9:44

Oh, fine. Our household is spend, don't look. Um, so yeah, we run on that motto. There's I really don't have that problem in mind. My husband's like, yeah, he's uh, yeah, he just wants to go and live it up and and uh think about it later on. Um other things that really irk us are littering. Gotta say, this wrecks my head, absolutely wrecks my head, littering. Putting your feet up on public transport doesn't wreck me as much as littering, but crowding the baggage carousel. Oh my goodness. I you know what I just did on my last trip. I just pulled my bag out and and that and I said to somebody, excuse me, excuse me. They wouldn't move. What are you gonna do? You just run over their toes, really. Unless, unless they're like, you know, super, you know, unless they're like a tiny child or a or an old person, you know, with sticks and stuff like that. It's like, how many times do I have to ask you to get out of the road before I haul my suitcase over you? And that was a heavy suitcase. It's like I've do you know what? I've asked you enough. I have just been sitting on a flatulent filled tin can for the past 14 hours. My patience is at an all-time low, people. I've asked you nicely and asking you again. And you were probably the one creating a little flatulence as well. So you doubly knead your toes.

SPEAKER_01: 11:02

I f well last time we flew, we had someone, I was standing there, Dave and I were standing there together. Actually, this was just when we went up to Noosa, and we were just standing there together, and this guy and I came along and literally stood. So we were sort of on the yellow line, you know, so as close as you're allowed to get in our little spot. Um, and this person came and stood right bang in front of me, like like literally, so there was no way I had nowhere to go. He was like right in front of me, and then he just and and then he was like so close that I could smell him. And I was like, what is so wrong? Why do you guys stand, need to stand in front of someone that close? Like just go find another spot or wait. I just find the whole thing just ridiculously rude. Anyway, another funny one nearly one in four Aussies get the travel ick if a stranger or people generally clap when the plane lands. Oh my god, how many times has this happened? I cannot tell you how many times I've been it's happened to me so many times. I've been in a plane, the plane comes in for a landing and everyone starts clapping. Oh no, why don't we all start booing when it's a really bad landing?

SPEAKER_02: 12:07

Haven't been on a clapping flight for quite a long time. I I used to fly a lot, the um flying in and out of Italy. I I do think that uh flights in and out of Italy get a lot of clapping. Um, and the last time I had a flight where people clapped was it was a really awful, tricky landing, and we were being buffeted and the the the plane and everybody was deathly quiet. You know, one of those ones where everybody just like gets in behind the the pilot, you know, and they're really quiet because you're just being knocked around in the air. And so when we landed, everybody applauded because the pilot was just working with some really awful crosswinds. So I don't know. I'm not sure that one is my was a massive, a massive ick. But um, you know, when it comes to arguments with our trouble partner, um mostly over not being able to contact each other after you separate. You know, if you're like going about different things in a day, not being able to contact each other, that is a pain in the backside. Getting lost, having no access to maps. I I've got to say, I do use paper maps for that reason. Um, not having mobile data or receiving an unexpectedly high phone bill after the trip, that is an absolute killer. That is that is brutal. What about you? What's your worst travel eat, Kirsty?

SPEAKER_01: 13:24

To me, it honestly just comes down to respect. So, you know, that person who just throws back their seat with little consideration, particularly on a domestic flight. And so you've got your laptop up and they just throw it back, and you're like, your laptop just about gets snapped in half. Um, or you know, they throw it back before the meal. Um, and also airplane toilets. I mean, we're all in this thing for hours. Can you please just aim? Like, just if you don't know like, and you can wash your hands. So just touch it, aim correctly, wash your hands so that we can all don't have sticky feet um on the flight. Because that is just the most revolting thing in the world. Um, how about you, Belle? What's yours?

SPEAKER_02: 14:09

Well, I've got to say having somebody else's urine on my shoes does rate as a very high travel egg. Oh, it is disgusting. Honestly, I'm I'm gonna put in with the toilets there somebody who's been in the toilet for a considerable period of time. And sometimes that just happens, right? But then when they come out, they just leave the door open. And if you're unlucky to be sitting in those couple of rows near the toilet, and you're like, bro, you have just about brutalized that very small space, and you've left and you just sort run out like you haven't got a care in the world, and you leave the door open behind you, and it's meal service, and it's just like, get out of my life, you animal. You animal, you're disgusting. Yeah, it's all about the toilets.

SPEAKER_01: 15:10

This week I'm chatting to founder and managing director of Take Off Go, Ivona Shineska, who is an expert in African safaris and has visited Africa 40 times. Oh, she's just got the dream life right. How did you guys meet? We actually met at an industry event that I attended for Carry-on, and um, we were at a dinner, and we really hit it off, and we've been chatting with each other ever since. And she is just has such a deep passion for Africa and wildlife. And when I was chatting to her and she was telling me all her insights into Africa, I thought, oh my God, everyone else needs to hear this. So um, that's what we did. We decided to have a little chat. So take a listen. Welcome to the show, Ivana. Hi, how are you? It's so great to have you on The World of Waits. Um, let's start by telling us a little bit about how you came to get into the travel industry.

SPEAKER_00: 16:02

Um, of course. Yes, thank you. I'm excited to be here. I came, I think travel is a little bit always in who I am and who how I grew up. We were we immigrated to Canada and when we could spent a lot of time traveling back to Europe, to Poland, where I was born. And a lot of that involved cost savings and finding the cheapest point of entry so we would fly into Amsterdam, Paris, and then make our way over to Poland. So travel was always kind of who I was growing up, and I was in a different industry. I was in the music industry, and then that that um was put on pause because the company I worked for got bought up by a big record label. And I went back to bartending, which is great money in North America and spent a lot of my time working, and then from um anything that I effectively made from tips I would spend to go travel. I applied once upon a time for a travel job and they told me I didn't have enough sales experience. And then so I just kept bartending and then traveling once every three, four weeks around Caribbean, Central America, South America, because I was living in Toronto and that was very close. Um, then from there, I think it was January or February, it was minus 30 degrees outside, and I was serving a table of suits. Um, I was quite tanned, beachy, you know, summer clearly came back from the tropics and they asked me about my 10. And I basically said to them that, oh, you know, I just came back from I think it was Cuba or Jamaica or somewhere and spoke a little bit about that. And it, and they asked, you know, made a comment about how I'm excited and passionate about travel and yada, yada, yada. Um, long story short, they ended up being a group of executives from Flight Center and was kind of prompted then to apply again and and more or less come in for an interview. Um, and I couldn't because I was leaving to China, which then I think cemented the fact that I travel quite a bit. Um, but I ended up interviewing as soon as I got back and starting three days later. And then the rest is history. I've worked kind of in Canada and in briefly for some contracts in the UK, and then in the last 12 years in Australia.

SPEAKER_01: 18:19

Amazing. Gosh, yes. And like, you know, we were saying earlier, it's all about the love of travel, right? That's why we're in it. So um, was it what is it about the uh saferis that has made you a specialist in that area? And um, and what makes you keep wanting to go back on safari?

SPEAKER_00: 18:35

Well, um, well, I love the world, and then safaris was kind of always on the list, but not necessarily just saferis. In 2010, there was meant to be a Global Achievers Award in South Africa, which I had qualified for, but a few months out they changed it because of conflict with the World Cup. And I decided I was going to continue to travel anyways, um, and came and spent what was meant to be three months in Africa, ended up being about nine, fell in love with it, um, traveling through all of East Africa, Southern Africa, and it really just brought me at the time, I suppose, and and every single time thereafter, it brought me peace. There's there's something about being here in Africa and all of it, which is really hard to generalize a continent because you wouldn't do it anywhere else. Um, but there's a level of humanity here. Um, and that that's just from kind of the people that I absolutely love, which brings me back. But also in the safari space, there's something about driving out that it's you become the truest form of yourself. So I always say to people, um, I keep coming back for the people, the place, which is just the natural mother nature and her beauty, um, the peace that it brings, because it just settles all of your thoughts. You you very much are left with a point of reflection when you're, you know, staring out from a vehicle into a pride of lions or or elephants or an impala in a tree. Um, and then the perspective. And I think every single time I come here, that that reflection just keeps me coming back over and over and over again because you really do when you're surrounded by wildlife, there's nothing else that you can think of other than how small and insignificant some of our problems can be. And so it really kind of just recenters you and helps you, I suppose, find yourself again and find that peace. Not to say that I need it, but it it really kind of just reaffirms um who I am each and every single time I'm here. Um, plus, it's it's just incredible. Like being out in the bush, the smell in the morning, the dust settling over the sunrise. Um it's incredible. Just driving out, the noises you hear at night. I slept in Johannesburg last night and it was the first silent sleep I've had in two weeks because I've been out in the bush. So in the middle of the night in the bush, you might hear hippos grazing outside of your tent. You might hear um alarm calls off in the distance, or elephants, and there's just something about it that's that's it gets under your skin. And most people who have been to Africa will tell you the same thing. There's just something about Africa that the moment you set foot here, you feel like you belong. And as soon as you leave, that you're just left with this overwhelming desire to return.

SPEAKER_01: 21:30

Amazing. And what do you think are sort of the things that most people um, you know, want to see? I mean, obviously the big five, but do most people that come to you, you know, because you're based in Melbourne, obviously, and uh well, and all and obviously that you you are are assisting um travel luxury travelers and travelers from all over Australia, but are they mostly coming to you saying, I want to go to Africa because I want to see the big five? Or are there other reasons? Uh I mean, that would be the primary reason, right?

SPEAKER_00: 22:01

It's it's a mixture. Some, some, yes, um, they they come to us because, or to me specifically, because they want to see the big five. Um, I kind of never really stop talking about Africa, and everyone who knows me knows that I'm here as often as I possibly can be. And so usually what happens is if anybody remotely mentions Africa in conversation, somebody will be like, you have to speak to Ivana. Some people come to me and and they, you know, they know exactly what they want to see. They have seen documentaries about Nagorongoro Crater and want to do East Africa, see the migration, the big five safaris. Some people come with a very, very, I suppose, clean slate and just say Africa's on their bucket list, they don't really know where or how um or or which part to see. And I think that's where the magic happens. Um, we spend a lot of time getting to know the guests that we send to Africa. Um, you know, if somebody emails me and they just want this, this, and this, and this, I'm very, very reluctant to ever just confirm that booking. I believe every experience in Africa can be personalized. So spend a lot of time getting to know the individual, their likes, their dislikes. Ideally, it's a face-to-face coffee or lunch ketchup, even better if it's a glass of wine. At the very least, a long phone call and Zoom because it can be catered so specifically to each individual, even down to the camps that we used to send people. Um it really just depends. I think there's a lot of Africa to cover. Um, East Africa is very different to Southern Africa. And in the last few years, we've had these amazing nature documentaries on Netflix, you know, BBC, The Planet Earth, where it highlights various parts of it. So I think some guests don't necessarily know how much of it can be combined or how much of it can be focused on one destination. I've just had 10 10 nights in Zambia. Um, you can do Zambia alone for 10, 15 nights, or you can combine Zambia on a 15-night Southern Africa itinerary. So a lot of it is getting to know the guests what they want, but then also personalizing every single trip. Because no two trips are the same to Africa, no two days are the same in Africa, no two drives are the same. And the more you can cater that experience to what that person wants, will you see the big five, with the exception of a few places where rhino might be a scarcity? That's a polite word, where rhino may no longer exist because of poaching. Um, the other four are relatively, I mean, they're in existence. So whether or not you see them, leopards are elusive. You know, those ones tend to be the hardest, but but there are reserves where the concentration of game are are higher, you're more likely to see them. You would never guarantee anything. Um, but you can kind of rest easy, knowing that that if somebody specifically their favorite animal is a leopard, I would probably send them to, you know, South Luangua in in Zambia has the highest concentration of leopard in the world or sabby sand. So there's places that an African specialist will be able to cater to the specific guest, depending if they're focused on specifically seeing an animal, if they want human aspect of it. Some people want to interact with villages, see the Maasai, see the Bushmen of the Kalahari, there's the Himba tribes of Namibia. There's, I mean, it's endless experiences you can offer in Africa. So it's really getting to know the guests and what what they are off after to ensure that what we are putting together tailors to them and is their once-in-a-lifetime trip. And I use air quotes, which you won't be able to see on a podcast, um, because it's there's no such thing as a once-in-a-lifetime trip. Everybody comes back and and and says they want to go back, they'll get back there. I had a couple who returned, I think I mentioned this to you last time. Their once-in-a-lifetime trip was in 2013, and they've come back from their ninth trip. So people do return over and over and over again because all of the reasons I've mentioned. Um, so yes, you can have your first trip to see the safaris and the animals and perhaps the big five, or they want to see the winelands or you know, Table Melton, or Kilomanjoro. Um, but there's something about the the region as a whole that brings people back.

SPEAKER_01: 26:39

Amazing. My gosh, yes. You you you're selling it very well. So um and I guess this then uh sort of leads uh into that whole issue, right? Of so many people and a lot of people wanting to go. And there have been a lot of unfortunately images out there of like wildlife surrounded by trucks. So, like, you know, 10, 10 or 15 trucks and like dozens and dozens of people surrounding, you know, just a few, just a few animals.

SPEAKER_00: 27:15

That neighbor or private concessions within where it does limit the vehicle, but in Serengeti, Masaymara's the majority of the park is public. So everybody traverses the same main road, which often means and it exists in southern Africa as well. But to speak of the footage, I think it was Nick Lear, who's a guide, who posted the first one, which is the one that went viral. If somebody sees something, they stop, which then means another vehicle stops and then another vehicle stops. So yes, you can have these incredibly immersive, intimate experiences where it's just yourself, your one vehicle, or maybe one other vehicle from your camp next to a pride of lions. A lot of the footage we've been seeing is dozens and dozens of vehicles. The which sometimes is is just the way it is, and that's fine. I think the biggest thing is we're working with properties and with gods who still respect the natural and understand and animals' behavior, can read if the animal is becoming stressed. They won't surround it from you know all angles. The animal should always have an exit point, should they not wish to be closer to the vehicles. The if you're in a game vehicle, the wild animal, whether it be a leopard, a cheetah, a lion, um, a buffalo, an elephant, it does see you as one main object. So if there's a lot of big objects, you're very safe in your vehicle. If there's a lot of these big objects that they see that are obstructing their roads, usually what they'll do is they'll just find a way to traverse somewhere else or walk around it. Um, you know, I've often have leopards walking by the vehicle, and we're not disturbing them because the guides and the properties in the camps that we work with know how to read their behavior. So rather than stopping the car directly in front of them, they'll see the leopard 200 meters away, can figure out the path it's going to take, and we'll just stop the vehicle and you get to witness this beautiful, majestic, regal creature walking at you from 200 meters away past you and onwards. And that's where you realize we, you know, we're we're guests in their kingdom. Where it gets tricky is a lot of places have guides where, you know, they just their guests might just offer them money, tips, etc. To nope, they want the shot, they want the shot, go closer, go closer, and that becomes an an area of contention. And unfortunately, you know, this part of the world is beautiful and the people are amazing, is also known for a little bit of corruption. So the, you know, that footage that we saw of people, it wasn't just the vehicles. The shocking part about it was that there was people outside of the vehicles standing on the banks of the river. Well, the migration of the wildebeest. Is trying to cross effectively in search of greener pastures. They're trying to get out of the water and they can't even make it up to the embankment because it's not just vehicles that are blocking their migration routes, which are millennial old. It's people out of the vehicles, which is stupid. Like it's absolutely stupid. It's not just endangering the animal, which might then force it to go back into these crocodile-infested waters. It's endangering themselves. If there's that much welder bees, there is predators around. If you're standing outside of the vehicles, like it's I it was shocking footage in our industry. Like I'm so beyond words. Because how on earth you would A, let your guests out of a vehicle, B, have that many vehicles on their route, but C also just endanger your own lives as a guest to get to get a photo. It's it's an absolute blessing and relief that nothing happened to a single human in all of it. The impact on the wildlife is atrocious, but it's just silly. And then to have seen it three weeks or four weeks later, on the same thing happening on the Kenyan side. It's yeah, I'm ugh. Angry words. Um, but the issue is it's every so a lot of people on their bucket list have the great migration because they see these amazing, amazing um, you know, Attenborough, BBC, wildlife documentaries where it's hundreds of thousands of wilder beasts crossing the river all at once. And so many guests tend to congregate to these areas in July and August, where because the river serpents, it's the highest likeliness that you will see the river crossings. What people don't understand is sometimes you will sit on that same spot by the river for a week and not a single animal will cross. Wildebees have been doing this circular clockwise migrations for centuries, and which is why they always have similar crossing paths. And while they have evolved to know which way to go and search in greener pastures and have the same paths and routes that they take, they're also not the smartest animal. So they'll go up to the water water, sniff it, come back out. So waiting for a migration to cross could take thick hours. You know, sometimes they'll go in, then they'll come back. Sometimes they'll go in, be chased by a crocodile, go back out, and then eventually still try to cross. It's it is the greatest show on earth. It's extraordinary if you get to see it, but it attracts so many people who then crowd and wait and see it and s and wait for this glimpse of something that may or may not happen, which attracts so many vehicles. So along the banks of the river, every single year in July and August, you just have permanently placed vehicles. Many are professional photographers, many are guests. Majority of these guests, photographers, guides, do the right thing. They stay further back. They're in these areas, though. You can have day trippers, self-drivers from some of the local cities, or you can have uh freelance guides who, you know, will take a group of guests and come in. So while the professional guides, everyone's a professional guide, but while the main lodges who respect the animals may be back from the embankment, giving these animals space, what happens is more and more vehicles congregate and then it just becomes overwhelming, full of vehicles, the footage that you see with with hundreds of vehicles, people get out for I the still the people getting out is beyond me, but people want a better shot. They get out. Many guests spend a lot of money to come to these regions for this shot. I would never risk my life for a photo, but we are we're living in the day and age of social media where, you know, whatever photo makes you more viral. It's it's strange. Combat that, you know, it's in Kenya, for instance, the Masay Mara has put up their park fees. It's 200 US per day. Um, yet everybody wants to come. And so you're still getting this amount of vehicles. The pro, I think working with an African specialist, what you can tell people is that you can still go see animals sealed. While you may not necessarily ever guarantee a river crossing, you can still go to these regions. You can see the savannas, the open plains, you can see, see the beauty of that region, but stay in private conservations, in in the concessions where they limit the amount of vehicles, where the land is leased from the Maasai, for instance, and they build their lodges to work with the Maasai so that they understand the value of tourism and giving back to the community. And there it limits the vehicles. So you guides respect each other. You know, if it's leopard cubs or line cubs, sometimes you may only have one vehicle there to ensure that that cub is slowly being introduced to vehicles rather than 20 vehicles all at once. And then most of those private reserves will then limit any vehicle siding to three vehicles to kind of treat Mother Nature as as we are there, as a guest rather than congregate. But with mass tourism in these areas, there will, it's shocking this year, um, but there will always be a congregation and a large volume of vehicles. It exists in Southern Africa as well. Everybody thinks of the Kruger, Kruger National Park is very similar. You're stuck to the main road. Anyone can come in and there's lodges within Kruger, there's campsites, self-camping, self-drive. So you get a lot of vehicles. There's the greater Kruger region has. We had a great guide the other day with time and tide in South Luango. There was a leopard up in a tree, which is for most people an iconic, you know, tick, take a photo of a leopard in a tree, um, I guess, checklist, bucket list item. And South Luango is a national park, so they're they don't limit the vehicles. Our guide was fantastic. George decided to stay back because he didn't feel right about it. There was already six vehicles there. The leopard needs to be able to see what it's hunting, needs to be able to jump down easily and step away. And it was one of every single one in our vehicle was so relieved because we don't want to overwhelm that that cat. And we went 300 meters later, um, further, and that's where we waited. And Lucy the leopard walked by our vehicle. So a lot of it is working with camps, with lodges, with guides who respect animals, respect their natural habitat, and won't do anything for their guests' photo, um, which sometimes is disappointing to the guests. But I think the onus is on us to also give people very realistic expectations as to what you may or may not see, but also emphasize the value of their lives, of the lives of these animals. If animals become too habituated and they start coming into camp or jumping into vehicles, eventually they will have to be put down. And nobody wants that. So education is a very key part of the consulting process for anyone who sells Africa. And that's part another reason why it's, you know, it's no two itineraries are the same. Some guests might feel very, very, you know, very apprehensive about being close to an animal on, on, on a feed, on a keel. Um, other guests want to see it all. So it's just kind of setting those realistic expectations. And and the guides are I've never had a bad guide because I work with the right properties, but the guides are absolutely incredible at um reading our behavior as guests, not just at the animals, but our behavior as guests to ensure that we are comfortable. The last thing you want to do is have a guest scream or act out. Um, if if a line does get too close, so it's guides are really, really good at gauging, and it's safety first for everyone: animal safety, human safety, guest safety, their own safety. Um, you know, we can see a lone bull elephant, and while it looks amazing and people want to see it closer, the guides will know that no, he's in must. We need to get away as quickly as possible. So working with the right camps, the right guides is key. I would be very, very reluctant. I've been 40 times and I would still never self-drive. So I think, yes, there's a lot of over tourism, and people do think it's accessible and the beauty of you know, AI, you can plan these things online, but it where are you compromising your safety if you're trying to do it yourself or cut corners or be closer to the animals?

SPEAKER_01: 38:45

Yeah, wow, that's so insightful and interesting. And and really, like you said, it comes down to making sure that you you you understand and you and you're doing your research and you and you're going through experts, so you're actually um working with the most responsible um operators in regards to ensuring because otherwise we, you know, like you said, I mean, even if they increase the costs, it's not having an impact on the overtourism. So the reality is at the end of the day, uh, you know, we we don't want to all risk actually losing the opportunity altogether. What um what what are some of your would your tips be then for what are just a couple of top tips for people who who have never been before, who who would who would say come to you and say, I really want to experience um the local people, um, you know, some wildlife and uh and and a really nice sort of safari, comfortable sort of maybe slightly luxe um safari experience. What would your what would your tops be for top top tips be for someone who was considering that?

SPEAKER_00: 39:49

I think from a guest's perspective, um, you know, in in in I suppose the comfortable luxury space, the it's endless. The service levels in Africa are unparalleled anywhere else. The lodges are unbelievable. Some of them have five rooms, some have maximum 12. So there's the exclusivity and comfort levels do exist. From a guest perspective, it's making sure you're speaking to somebody, an agent, a specialist, and being as honest and asking all the questions you want. Um, you know, there's no such thing as a silly question. We we've been here, most of us have been here endless times, which is why it's become such a passion. So asking so that you are understanding on what you're experiencing or expecting when you arrive is great. And asking the guides the question. Guides are full of information. I learn something new every single day when I'm here. So I think, you know, if you want to see the gorillas, be honest. Say you might have mobility issues. And then we can say, okay, well, you know, gorilla trekking is amazing. In Rwanda, shorter hikes, but higher altitude. In Uganda, longer heights, lower altitude. And so, really, kind of the more open a guest or an agent is about the traveler, the more that the itinerary can really be curated to not just their wants and what they want to see, but their needs and their comfort level. And then from a safari point of view, I mean it's mix it up. Like Zambia is is eaten. It's it's amazing. Don't necessarily think that because you see Kenya, Tanzania on nature docks, that that's the most amount of animals. Um, Lower Zambezi National Park, where I was just was unbelievable. I stopped counting elephants because every single photo we took was surrounded by elephants, babies, all the animals. So I think it's be open to new destinations, especially if if there's um, you know, time of year constraints or or you want more value out of your money, but also take the guidance. If if the more forthcoming people are with information, the better the guidance can be from us and you know, East Africa, can your comfort levels may not be the same for one guest as they might be for another? And we can really kind of tailor if Madagascar, if Namibia, if Botswana, if Kenya, Zambia are the right fit for that guest.

SPEAKER_01: 42:04

Yeah, great advice. Um, and um, we're running out of time, but I'm gonna quickly ask you what's your favorite safari destination and why?

SPEAKER_00: 42:13

I don't know that I have one, and everybody asks me this. I mean, this these these last nine nights that I had in Zambia completely blew my mind, and I want to return. Already I'm like, when can I come back? Um, Botswana is very special as well because because it's it's Botswana and that's what's all on all the nature docs, but Zambia has the water activities as well. There's something about the lower, um, the greater Kruga area. I love Sabi Sand. Love Sabi Sand. Um, I've stayed. Dulini is actually the only camp I've ever returned to in all of these years of traveling to, because it's I just loved it so much. But then you have fantastic properties in the southern part of Sabi Sand where the service is just you leave feeling like family. So that's where I send all of my guests. Um, you know, Lion Sands is that whole concession is private. It's amazing. I don't know, but then Tanzania special, I really don't know. I don't have a favorite destination. So long as I'm out in the bush, I am happy out in the bush, you know, surrounded by wildlife, the the the sun-torched earth, the smell in the air, the there's turtle, cake turtle doves make this noise that I don't know how to mimic, but you hear it when you're driving through. And that for me is peace, and it's my happy place. So I don't, I don't really know that I have a favorite. So long as I'm in the bush, it's my favorite.

SPEAKER_01: 43:31

Amazing. Well, look, I have to ask you the last question we ask all of our guests, which is what's the most bizarre thing that's ever happened to you on your travels?

SPEAKER_00: 43:39

Years ago, now maybe in 2013, I was in Madagascar, um, which is amazing. It's it's it's it's a whole other continent, really. I mean, it's part of Africa, but it could be its whole other continent just because of the species that you find there. They have 103 species of lemurs, which is amazing. But I was there photographing a lemur um outside of on the sea bay and and just had my SLR out taking photographing a lemur in a tree, and another lemur, different species, jumped up on my shoulders and actually tried to try to look through the viewfinder. And I have this photo of me trying to take a photo, lemur trying to stick a skin in crap on my shoulder for like a good three, four minutes, trying to, I guess, see what I was seeing. Um, and then got a bit bored and jumped off by amazing. Um, and I'd I'd I'm I'm not for human wildlife kind of connection anywhere. But if an animal lemurs are they're not predators, but if they jump on you, um I'm not going to, you know, you kind of just go with it. And and I suppose that that's where the embracing the bizarre, definitely one of the most bizarre things that's happened to me. Um but yeah, a special moment in hindsight.

SPEAKER_01: 44:49

Yes, I bet. Oh my gosh, it's been so amazing talking to you. And we're gonna put a link in the show notes um about where people can reach out to you. But thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

SPEAKER_02: 45:00

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. I absolutely loved Ivona's tips about how to make sure you're doing the right thing by the wildlife and ensuring that our future generations can have the same experiences that we're having. So if you'd like to learn more about Africa or plan a trip, go to her website, takeoffgo.com, and we'll put a link in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01: 45:32

Our tip this week is as Aussie as they come. We are revealing for road trippers, the road trippers among us, where to get the best pie.

SPEAKER_02: 45:40

Oh, the most important thing, right, when you're on a road trip. So the great Aussie pie competition judges the best pies and sausage rolls around Australia. I've got to say, I do love a good pie. If you ever ask the question who ate all the pies, hands up. Um, and I will happily detoo it to find the dream pie. So the competition's been running for about 36 years. They've got some chops when it comes to eating all the pies. The judges spent four days munching on pies of all flavours, and the winner is the best pie is Paradise Bakehouse in Bunderburg in Queensland.

SPEAKER_01: 46:14

And if you're not in regional Queensland anytime soon, the runner up is the Pie Father in the South Sydney suburb of Roseberry. Bonus points for the Pie Father because they're so close to the airport that um, yeah, just saying it could be the transit snap that you didn't know you needed.

SPEAKER_02: 46:31

And the winner for the best plain sausage roll is uh from uh banana boogie in Bel Air in the Adelaide Hills. So that is the basic best plain sausage roll. If you're looking for something a bit more fancy, you will be driving to Western Australia as the best gourmet pie was the beef bouguignon made by the Mount Barker Country Bakery in Mount Barker, which is near Albany. And this bakery also had the best vegan/slash vegetarian pie, which is a delicious-sounding roasted cauliflower with black truffle, black truffle provo cheese sauce. In the middle of nowhere, what a winner.

SPEAKER_01: 47:07

And if you're a chicken pie lover and you live in the Blue Mountains, make tracks to Mountain High Pies and went with Falls for their gold medal winner, Gourmet Bite of Chicken Pie, yum yum. Okay, I'm just gonna add one more, which isn't on this list, but it is rated on the Australian Good Food Guide, which is a called Island Pies Bakery in New Haven, which is on Phillip Island, and they have the most incredible pies. And do you know what they're famed for? They are famed for their scallop pies.

SPEAKER_02: 47:35

Well, I heard they were remarkable too. So last time I was down in Phillip Island, um, which was about nine months ago, I think I was doing some stuff for Good Weekend, heard about the pies, did the detour, ate the pies. They were very good. Because traditionally, scallop pies are a the preserve of Tasmania. Like Tasmania's famous for its scallop pies. I think they're a bit hit and miss sometimes, too much of the old Keene's curry powder. So I was I was a bit skeptical, but it fueled me back for the drive home to um West Melbourne.

SPEAKER_01: 48:06

So eager. So there you go. You verified my uh pie recommendation.

SPEAKER_02: 48:13

So winner winner chicken dinner to plan your pie eating adventures. Jump on great AussiePiecomp.com.au for the full list, and we will put the address in the show notes so you can plan your next pie eating road trip. Next week it's Kirsty in the hot seat as she takes us to one of the world's great archaeological sites, Ancore What in CMREAP, and tells you why this Cambodian landmark is one of the best places to travel with your teens.

SPEAKER_01: 48:41

And we'd love it if you follow us on socials. You'll find us at the World Awaits Podcast on Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn. And feel free to drop us a line at hello at the worldawaits.au or if you're enjoying this episode, we would be so grateful if you could give us a rating or review.

SPEAKER_02: 48:56

That's a wrap for the World Awaits this week. Click to subscribe anywhere you listen to your favorite pods. Thanks for listening. See you next week.